CoS Home    Cos FAQ    Register CoS    Register    Login    Forum    Forum FAQ

Board index » Citadel of Sorcery General Discussions » Abilities




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 11 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 8:35 pm 
Offline
Patron Scribe
Patron Scribe
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:41 pm
Posts: 100
With no trinity roles, how will party members synergize with each other? How will parties feel like parties and not a random group of adventures who all happen to be in the same place? I'm asking this because a couple MMO's like Guild Wars 2 have tried to abandon this system only to end up backfiring. In those games, because you don't need to directly rely on other people (beyond telling them not die) you'd just zerg down bosses ignoring your teammates. Everything feels chaotic without an enforced structure. How will CoS avoid this pitfall?

_________________
Citadel of Sorcery Wiki


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 3:55 pm 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator

Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:04 am
Posts: 241
Location: NSW Australia
Despite there being no taunt or major healer, there will always be uses for tanky and support characters. The enemy AI will be far beyond any normal MMO, even if you were all perfect zerging characters... you would all die by just rushing in. You need to have strategy and co-ordination (unless you have the difficulty set to easiest).

_________________
I'm not concerned about making mistakes. I'm merely proving true the statement "It happens to the best of us."


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 8:03 am 
Offline
Lead Designer
Lead Designer
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:00 am
Posts: 1876
Antilurker77 wrote:
With no trinity roles, how will party members synergize with each other? How will parties feel like parties and not a random group of adventures who all happen to be in the same place? I'm asking this because a couple MMO's like Guild Wars 2 have tried to abandon this system only to end up backfiring. In those games, because you don't need to directly rely on other people (beyond telling them not die) you'd just zerg down bosses ignoring your teammates. Everything feels chaotic without an enforced structure. How will CoS avoid this pitfall?


First off, just because another game failed to implement a viable system without forcing repeating roles on players is no reason not to create a system that does work. Forcing set roles means that each player must always do the same thing in each battle. Repitition is another word for boredom. There are many reasons why the average player spends three months or less in a typical MMO, this is one of them.

We are designing our combat system to be more realistic. This means that you may indeed have a chaotic group of individuals, but that is up to the group. Using group tactics in a battle, cooperating and planning moves and roles will vastly increase your chance of survival. Your enemies will be using tactics and strategy against you, if your group does not do the same they will likely be wiped out.

But, no player is forced to the same role in every battle. We give players the tools to adapt their strategies to the situation. The simple fact is that the Trinity system will not work against every group of opponents in CoS, since our NPCs have varying intelligence and shifting tactics.

It is up to the players to figure out the best roles for their group based on the situation at hand. This keeps every combat situation interesting, and rewards player cooperation and innovation.

_________________
Remember, patience is a virtue, kill them later. - Poison: from Cathexis: Conspirator's Coin.
http://www.philipblood.com


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 4:21 pm 
Offline
Lead Designer
Lead Designer
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:00 am
Posts: 1876
I'd love to hear players poke at this further. If you have concerns about a system that doesn't force the Trinity roles, let's hear them!

_________________
Remember, patience is a virtue, kill them later. - Poison: from Cathexis: Conspirator's Coin.
http://www.philipblood.com


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 5:23 pm 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator

Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:04 am
Posts: 241
Location: NSW Australia
Although i do have plenty of issues with the trinity roles (such as, the nightmare of leveling a support/tank, compared to leveling a dps/nuke), one thing i always loved, was standing in front of a colossal creature so powerful that if it doesn't die here, it'l basically destroy the world... And i'm taunting it to its face. Having its undivided attention, staring into the belly of the beast, is a thrill unlike any other. The tension and atmosphere of the preparation for the coming battle, where you KNOW you will be right in the sights of this creature, and although you're the tank, it still hurts like hell, and if you make a mistake, it could mean a party wipe. It's intoxicating.

_________________
I'm not concerned about making mistakes. I'm merely proving true the statement "It happens to the best of us."


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 6:29 pm 
Offline
Lead Designer
Lead Designer
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:00 am
Posts: 1876
ShadowOfTheAlphaUhm wrote:
Although i do have plenty of issues with the trinity roles (such as, the nightmare of leveling a support/tank, compared to leveling a dps/nuke), one thing i always loved, was standing in front of a colossal creature so powerful that if it doesn't die here, it'l basically destroy the world... And i'm taunting it to its face. Having its undivided attention, staring into the belly of the beast, is a thrill unlike any other. The tension and atmosphere of the preparation for the coming battle, where you KNOW you will be right in the sights of this creature, and although you're the tank, it still hurts like hell, and if you make a mistake, it could mean a party wipe. It's intoxicating.


Sounds to me that it isn't the Trinity system that you enjoy, but the thought that you are standing in the way of a monster, and if you fail your group will pay. There is nothing stopping any of this from taking place without the Trinity system.

Example, your team decides that they want to ambush a big monster, and one of you will need to be the bait to get that monster into the kill zone. If you mess up, you'll die, and possibly your entire party.

Example 2: There is a group of monsters about to wipe out a Town, if you don't hold them at a pass, but there is no way you can win, but if you can hold them there long enough for your companions to attack from the rear, maybe you'll win.

Neither of these require the Trinity system.

_________________
Remember, patience is a virtue, kill them later. - Poison: from Cathexis: Conspirator's Coin.
http://www.philipblood.com


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:59 am 
Offline
Patron Scribe
Patron Scribe

Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:13 pm
Posts: 85
It's not the tank vs dps system that gets me. my issue is with the skill rotation in combat. When any fight starts, it's always the same rotation of skills. "A B C, A off cooldown, A, D, B off cooldown, B, A, C" etc.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:58 am 
Offline
Lead Designer
Lead Designer
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:00 am
Posts: 1876
So let's talk about that, just a little...

There is nothing stopping you from doing an "A B C, A B C, repeat until dead" scenario... well, except that last part about being dead. In CoS you can't just repeat the same attacks over and over, and there are a lot of reasons why. Not the least of which are these facts:

1) Enemies vary in intelligence, and use different strategies accordingly. The smarter they are, the more options they have available. Only the dumbest monsters will stand there and let you beat on them forever.

2) Our combat system requires you to react to what your opponent is doing. Thus, if you do an A B C rotation, you aren't reacting, and are therefore taking more damage in various ways.

3) Our world reality/physics/magic (not a good name for it, sorry, I'll explain more in the future) system rewards players who assist others dynamically. (Don't ask, I'm not going to explain this yet, sorry) This requires (again) that you react to what is happening to you, or your party, and deal with it constantly.

4) Our health system is unique (again, this is still part of that system that is under wraps so I have to skirt around this a little), but due to the unique features you have to monitor your health and change tactics as you fight accordingly. It's not just about how much damage you are taking.

5) Movement matters in strategy, so you will need to change your position at times.

6) There are group and solo options during combat that allow you to employ changing tactics. One such example of these is our chain system, which is a type of combat gambling, where you can build up a potential power hit, but are risking everything you have gained to push it a little higher each time before you actually use it. This is not the only such option.

All these things lead to one important fact, you can't script a battle, instead you have to react and change to the ebb and flow of the battle as it unfolds, constantly making new decisions that affect how well you will do.

Having said all that, you must also understand that we won't be throwing all of this at you day one. The game will introduce more and more of these systems the deeper you get into the game, otherwise the game would kill off all the poor players who tried it, who were used to typical combat systems where they can just stand there and do A B C attacks, repeat.

One way that we introduce this slowly is by starting you against the dumbest monsters we have, and then let you slowly run into more and more intelligent monsters. Another way is that we introduce some of the new options later in the game. They are rewards for ascending the Tiers of the Citadel. Our Parry and Feint system is one such example of this, it is gained when you go to Tier 2.

_________________
Remember, patience is a virtue, kill them later. - Poison: from Cathexis: Conspirator's Coin.
http://www.philipblood.com


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:49 pm 
Offline
Patron Scribe
Patron Scribe

Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:13 pm
Posts: 85
I'm glad that you explained it in such a way. Even though you can't go in depth on some topics, i've still learned new things from this response.

"3) Our world reality/physics/magic (not a good name for it, sorry, I'll explain more in the future) system rewards players who assist others dynamically. (Don't ask, I'm not going to explain this yet, sorry) This requires (again) that you react to what is happening to you, or your party, and deal with it constantly."

I can't wait to see what you mean when you say that players are rewarded for assisting other players 'dynamically'. Does this mean players will have higher chance of rare loot depending on %involvement in a particular cave/castle with that party, or will it be simply that as you assist players in various ways, (i.e. boosts or heals) the player is also rewarded in some manner 'on the spot'? If you're not allowed to answer this question, I respect that, but a super specific generalized response is greatly appreciated! ;)

6) There are group and solo options during combat that allow you to employ changing tactics. One such example of these is our chain system, which is a type of combat gambling, where you can build up a potential power hit, but are risking everything you have gained to push it a little higher each time before you actually use it. This is not the only such option.

Again, I respect if you can't answer this question. But this makes me think there may be such an option as a toggle switch/button on the UI, (player customized for location) that can help switch between combat settings and skills players wish to utilize in such instances that they've already set up to their tastes. Obviously, most mmorpg 'type' games already have this in the form of skill set numbers, usually [0]1-9, separate lists of 12 skills that can be tabbed through. No doubt that this makes it easier for players to customize which skills they want to use and when, however, I'm thinking that there's a chance CoS may go above and beyond this in ways never heard of. What I'm specifically thinking is a toggle not just between skill sets, but a fighting stance to match said skill set. For instance, you've mentioned before that perhaps your team's strategy is to have 80% ranged characters higher up, with a few melee down below to rain hell on thine enemies. Even if you're higher up, it might still be beneficial to be crouched and not standing. Though this may also be a skill itself, leaning forward and charging in as a melee would also be beneficial, if it were a stance and not a skill. With 1890 skills, I can't help but suspect that a player would be in a better position to cast many skills in different stances depending on the situation. When fighting with a group as an archer in the back, you might have a more aggressive stance, not too worried at the moment about switching to melee unless you're ambushed from behind. But if you're solo, and you still have the opportunity to shower ranged attacks on your enemy, your stance would noticeably be different, because you're already prepared to switch to melee at some point when your enemy gets closer. Your stance would be different, also allowing for different types of attacks.

I feel like with that last idea I'm starting to stretch to the "what I think would be cool" instead of "what do you guys have planned for this?"


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 9:25 am 
Offline
Patron Scribe
Patron Scribe

Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:24 pm
Posts: 91
"Does this mean players will have higher chance of rare loot depending on %involvement in a particular cave/castle with that party, or will it be simply that as you assist players in various ways, (i.e. boosts or heals) the player is also rewarded in some manner 'on the spot'?"

Im purely speculating, but I feel like it might be more of a 1 min of dmg boost, healing, regeneration type thing. This is CoS though, so its probably something totally different and new lol


Top 
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
 
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 11 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

Board index » Citadel of Sorcery General Discussions » Abilities


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

 
 

 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
cron